Halak And Haram

[Sham x]

Halal and Haram - An alternative juridical view
By Dr. Muhammad ‘Umar Bazmool


Muslims today are under the impression that food products, such as gelatine and emulsifiers (E471, E472, etc.), including other related aspects, are haram (forbidden in Islam) because the origin stems from an impermissible source. However, the following talk delivered by Sheikh Muhammad 'Umar Bazmool during his classes from "Ad-Durar al-Bahiyyah" of ash-Shawkanee in the summer of 1423 in Makkah (translated by Moosa Richardson and a fatwa given by Sheikh Nasirud-deen al-Albaani), provides an alternative view point that brings this religion back to what it was meant to be – made easy (yusr) and not difficult (‘usr).

Istihala is when something becomes pure. It was najis (impure), but it is now tahir (pure). A good example would be maitah (animal carcass): it is najis, but should it be burned and become ashes, or decompose and become earth, then it is tahir, it is no longer najis. This can happen with dung or faeces or whatever:

Whenever something changes from one property to another, then the ruling likewise changes.

For example: Let us say that someone uses the fat of a dead animal to make soap. That fat is najis; but the chemical change that it was put through renders it taahir.

Ibn Hazm put it concisely when he said: "Ruling upon an object is upon what it is named (what it is), if the name (of what it is) changes then so does the ruling."

He also mentioned in his book of fiqh (jurisprudence), Al-Muhalla:

"If the quality of the substance of naturally impure objects changes the name which was given to it so that it is no longer applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, then it is no longer an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule."

Meaning, if the natural composition of a substance changes to another substance of a different composition, so much so that you can no longer call the new substance by the name of what it was - ruling upon that substance changes too.

Proof 1:

The companions (radiAllahu ‘anhum) used to eat a cheese that came from the land of the non-Muslims. In that cheese was a part of the calf that was slaughtered by the non-Muslims in a way that was not in accordance with Islam. The companions knew this, but they also knew that the prohibition was upon the calf, i.e. what is directly from the calf, and what could be properly called part of the calf; the ruling is not upon that which you cannot identify as part of the calf nor is it called any longer such-and-such part of the calf. This is called istihala.

Proof 2:

Another proof from the Sunnah (Prophetic Tradition) was when the Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade making vinegar out of wine, but said that if you should come across vinegar that has been made from wine then it is halal. Why? The ruling is upon what the object is, and not what it was. Wine is haram, vinegar is not, and before the wine became an intoxicant, it was halal. Why? Because it was fruit before that.

Proof 3:

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle we give you to drink of what is in their bellies from between the faeces and blood, pure milk, wholesome to those who drink it." (16:66)

Allah is putting forth an example for us of how something pure can come from something impure.

And we can also use as proof something that we've already gone over. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said that when the hide of maitah (carrion) is tanned, then it is tahir. He (peace be upon him) gave us a method to purify something which was first impure.

Let us examine things we are familiar with: mono and diglycerides, whey, gluten, emulsifiers, gelatine, and whatever else is on the international haram list. These by-products sometimes come from animals, pigs even, in which case the ruling on the initial substances is that they are haram. But the initial substances (e.g. fat, marrow, cartilage, etc.) are put through chemical change so that you no longer can even call it "pig fat" or "animal bone" or "skin" or "cartilage", etc. because it is no longer that; thus, it is tahir, it is halal.

What is gelatine? As Oxford dictionary of science defines: "A colourless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling."

Is this a chemical change or is this not a chemical change? Is it protein any longer? No, it is not.

You are in disbelief so you ask: "But how can it be halal when it came from something haram?"

Because of the proofs mentioned above: the ruling is not based upon what it was, the ruling is based upon what it is. A Hanafi scholar, Ibn Abedin, gave the example: "The swine which drowns in a salt lake and decomposes and becomes salt itself, is now halal."

And other Hanafi scholars go on to say: "Salt is different from meat and bones. If they become salt, they are salt."

To take the salt example further: salt consists of sodium chloride (NaCl) when together they are the halal food known as salt, when separated they make up two poisonous substances which are then haram for consumption.

The ahnaf (Hanafis) also use as an example the human semen, saying that it is najis, then when it inseminates the egg and becomes a blood clot it is still najis, but when it becomes flesh it is no longer najis. And the ahnaf are not the only ones who take this position.

The examples are numerous and they extend beyond food.

We must be careful when we call things haram because it is a form of thulm (oppression). Scholars have said that it is worse that you make something halal to haram than making something haram to halal. This deen (way of life) Allah has made yusr (easy), let us not make it 'usr (hard). Wallahu 'alim (and Allah knows best).

(END OF TALK)

In relation to the above principles, we forward the complicated and precise process of gelatine production and its five-fold stages of purification.

GME - GELATINE MANUFACTURERS OF EUROPE

Gelatine is produced in highly technological industrial installations in a complex procedure involving several stages. The input material is the connective tissue of pigs, cattle, poultry or fish. The collagen protein is removed from the pig, calf or cattle skin as well as bones and is processed to form gelatine. Gelatine the final product is a pure source of protein.

1. Pretreatment

First of all, the fat and minerals are removed from the raw materials. Afterwards two different pre-treatment methods are used, depending on the raw material and on the final application of the gelatine.

Alkaline Procedure:

The connective tissue of cattle is highly interconnected and is therefore pre-treated with lime in a process lasting several weeks. This brings about a gentle change to the collagen structure. After this treatment, the collagen is soluble in warm water and can thus be separated from the rest of the raw material.

Acid Procedure:

The collagen connective tissue from pigskin is not so heavily interconnected. Here, a one-day acid treatment with subsequent neutralisation and the intensive rinsing out of the salts is sufficient to extract the collagen.

2. Extraction

The pre-treated raw materials are now treated with hot drinking water and extracted in several stages. The temperature of the hot water is a parameter for the jelly strength: the lower the temperature of the water, the higher the jelly strength (Bloom value) of the extracted gelatine.

3. Cleaning

The extracted solutions are freed of traces of fat and fine fibres in high-performance separators. Even the finest impurities are removed by filtration, in a similar way to the beverages industry. In a last purification stage the gelatine is freed of calcium, sodium, residual acid and other salts.

4. Thickening

The gelatine solution is now concentrated in vacuum evaporators and thickened to form a honey-like solution.

5. Drying

The highly concentrated gelatine solutions are sterilised, cooled, set and dried under strict hygienic conditions. In this process, "gel noodles" are formed that are ground into grains.

The quality and purity of the gelatine is ensured by detailed quality control. All of these steps are indispensable for gelatine manufacture and have been used for decades to manufacture high-quality gelatine.


The Muslim Weekly

So is Gelatine Halal or Haram?

[Sham x]

Whoops, supposed to say Halal

[lolzybear]

I would like to see Dr. Zakir's view on this.

[Sham x]

Whats your views? I find it convincing, because he makes good points, but surely if it was true, more people would know about it

[slim.]

Dr. Zakir? he's a scholar of hinduism and Christianity and says that u can call Allaah Brahma, he's ignorant when it comes to Islam, jsut because u can memorise a few hadith and aayahs don't mean jack

as for Shaykh Umar Baazmool, then based on the evidences the truth in this matter is with him, and gelatine and most "E" numbers are actually halal.

see the following site for more details:

[slim.]

Originally Posted by SHAMALICIOUS

Whats your views? I find it convincing, because he makes good points, but surely if it was true, more people would know about it

islaam isnt down 2 our opinions shammy dear, its based on the quran and sunnah, which this TRUE scholar brings

as for Mr Naik, then see here for a refutation of unIslamic principles:

http://www.google.com/custom?domains...3BFORID%3A1%3B

[CR7.]

Originally Posted by Dr.Slim

islaam isnt down 2 our opinions shammy dear, its based on the quran and sunnah, which this TRUE scholar brings

as for Mr Naik, then see here for a refutation of unIslamic principles:

http://www.google.com/custom?domains...3BFORID%3A1%3B

sum gud text there

[bengalibombshell]

im not one to point a finger at ones spellings but i thought i should point out that the word halal is miss-spelled in the thread tittle!

[Crackerjack]

Originally Posted by bengalibombshell

im not one to point a finger at ones spellings but i thought i should point out that the word halal is miss-spelled in the thread tittle!

http://www.wass-up.com/forum/showpos...97&postcount=2

Nice one Habz ;D.

[LaLa]

Originally Posted by Dr.Slim

Dr. Zakir? he's a scholar of hinduism and Christianity and says that u can call Allaah Brahma, he's ignorant when it comes to Islam, jsut because u can memorise a few hadith and aayahs don't mean jack

as for Shaykh Umar Baazmool, then based on the evidences the truth in this matter is with him, and gelatine and most "E" numbers are actually halal.

see the following site for more details:

When Dr Zakir Naik comes on tv, i never ever ever ever understand what he says because it becomes all too confusin for me. But what uve said above comes as a shock 2 me coz my whole family love him....did he reli say that :s?

[*LaAli*]

Dr Zakir is sppose to be wow factor when present at conventions and stuff, when hes on tv i get confused when he talks i cnt keep up.. did he really say all that stuff

[slim.]

Originally Posted by Lubz

When Dr Zakir Naik comes on tv, i never ever ever ever understand what he says because it becomes all too confusin for me. But what uve said above comes as a shock 2 me coz my whole family love him....did he reli say that :s?

yeh he did, the audios are on the links, and where they aren't i've got copies of the audios as well

with regards to Islaam he's fairly jaahil (ignorant), just because your a good memoriser don't mean jack

may Allaah guide him and us

[Sham x]

Originally Posted by Dr.Slim

islaam isnt down 2 our opinions shammy dear, its based on the quran and sunnah, which this TRUE scholar brings

So you agree from what this true scholar brings, that gelatine is halal? Had you heard of this theory before? Is it jst me who's found about this now?

[Sham x]

Originally Posted by bengalibombshell

im not one to point a finger at ones spellings but i thought i should point out that the word halal is miss-spelled in the thread tittle!

Right. what did you just do! foooool.

[l3itch_Tamer]

Originally Posted by SHAMALICIOUS

So you agree from what this true scholar brings, that gelatine is halal? Had you heard of this theory before? Is it jst me who's found about this now?

Originally Posted by Dr.Slim

islaam isnt down 2 our opinions shammy dear, its based on the quran and sunnah, which this TRUE scholar brings

as for Mr Naik, then see here for a refutation of unIslamic principles:

http://www.google.com/custom?domains...3BFORID%3A1%3B

On the authority of Al-Hasan bin Ali, the grandson of the messenger of Allah, who said : I memorized from the messenger of Allah his saying :
"Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt."
narrated by Termithi and Nasaee, and Tirmithi said it is true and fine hadith.

On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :
"That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."
narrated by Bukhari and Muslim

I would still say its better to avoid what you are unsure about. Many scholar will have the opinion that gelitine is haram, so it doesn't matter who is right and wrong, the best thing for a common person would be to avoid it.

[وقار]

Dr Zakir is a knowledgable person but he is typically to kind of person to help guide 'pakified' muslims and also hindus/sikhs wanting to learn about islam... I dont like his approach.

[slim.]

Originally Posted by l3itch_Tamer

On the authority of Al-Hasan bin Ali, the grandson of the messenger of Allah, who said : I memorized from the messenger of Allah his saying :
"Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt."
narrated by Termithi and Nasaee, and Tirmithi said it is true and fine hadith.

On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :
"That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."
narrated by Bukhari and Muslim

I would still say its better to avoid what you are unsure about. Many scholar will have the opinion that gelitine is haram, so it doesn't matter who is right and wrong, the best thing for a common person would be to avoid it.

it's an unsure thing if you don't know the evidences, but Shaykh Baazmool brings the evidences clear as day, as there is a famous hadith reported by 'Irbad ibn Sariyah (and it is Sahih):

The Prophet admonished us, such an admonishment that our eyes started overflowing, and our hearts started pounding. We asked: "O Apostle of Allah, this seems like a parting sermon, what do you propose for us to do." He replied: "I have left upon clear whiteness, its night is like its day. Whoever sways from it after me will be destroyed. Whoever lives on after me will witness many upheavals, so hold steadfast to my practice and the practice of the Rightly-Guided caliphs after me."

Insha-Allaah as long as the strength of evidences is there, we go upon that.

If anyone is still unsure after seeing all the evidences, then yes, they should go by the narrations that advise staying away from that which one is unsure about, but to claim the issue in-of-itself is one of unsurity then that is not true.

Yes there is a difference of opinion amongst some of the scholars on this, but the strength is with those that have the strongest evidence as the Prophet (salAllaahu 'alayhi was sallam) has said, in a hadith brought by both Bukhari and Muslim: "When a judge gives judgement and strives to know a ruling (ijtahada) and is correct, he has two rewards. If he gives judgement and strives to know a ruling, but is wrong, he has one reward"

So a judge/scholar can be right or wrong in an affair he gives judgement in, but we look at the rulings and use the scales of the Qur'an, Sunnah, and way of the Companions, that which falls in line we take, that which doesn't we leave...

I've attached a couple of articles regarding this for people to read

Originally Posted by SHAMALICIOUS

So you agree from what this true scholar brings, that gelatine is halal? Had you heard of this theory before? Is it jst me who's found about this now?

I do shammy, and I've known this for years tbh. Gelatin in of itself whatever source it's acquired from is the same chemical substance. The article establsihes the proof to clear it from the accusation of being haram.

if u need more details just PM me, and read the two articles i've attached with this post for general principles as well

take care

[Sirus]

Dr Slim. dude, serious question, is steriods haraam? to take & hence distribute? No this aint a wind up, i'm bein serious.

[slim.]

Originally Posted by Wass-Up B!tch

Dr Slim. dude, serious question, is steriods haraam? to take & hence distribute? No this aint a wind up, i'm bein serious.

i don't know, i'd heard some scholars mentions it's ok, because the benefit outways the harm when used correctly, and it can't be compared to other drugs likes intoxicants because they take a different ruling

but i've heard people quote the associated risks and claim that as a reason for it being haram, but again, are we talking PROPER use ot OVERabuse?

[Shock]

he he.. so if I say.. Me.. should I really say.. Me (Peace be upon Me)?